DNA:
Mumbai: Monday, 28 September 2015.
In city to
attend the Right to Know Day, dna caught up with Nikhil Dey, prominent activist
who made the 'people's draft' of the Right To Information (RTI) Act. Dey talks
about the need for grievance redressal, synchronisation of laws with RTI, their
implementation and the need for the courts to be more progressive.
Q You are
here to mark Right to Know (RTK) Day. Why is it important?
A Right to
Know is something like UN declaration of human rights. For human rights, it is
vital (for one) to know. No other right can you access unless you know
something.
Q Is there
a difference between RTK and RTI?
A Right to
Know transcends issues of RTI. It is not question of 'suchna ka adhikar', it is
'jankari'. It is processed information that takes one from transparency to
accountability. RTI gets access to information. How do I make it to actionable
points, change culture of secrecy to openness is knowledge. Information may be
a black and white sheet of paper but demystification of documents is part of RTK.
It is going from facts to values. A person may be getting X wage but the value
of it is knowledge. India as a modern country has taken the leadership of
slowly moving into that movement and it makes the discourse on RTK richer. Our
courts have acknowledged that. The discourse has changed from Article 19 to
Article 14 that talk of equal rights. The basis of equal right is to know about
rights that could be related to ones land, raising grievance or something else.
Q How is
RTI Act performing?
A There are
three major segments to judge it the people including activist and media, the
government and commissions. People have been fantastic. They have managed to
get all kinds of scams exposed, keep control on future scams. Over 50 lakh
applications are filed which is a phenomenal number. At the government end,
effective usage of RTI would have made the government extremely progressive,
increased efficiency but no state government has shown any commitment to suo
motu disclosure. With respect to commissions, barring a few notable exceptions,
most others have been disappointing. They are supposed to be on the side of
people and make sure that information is provided.
Q The
penetration of the Act has not increased as expected. It is still around one
per cent. Often government is blamed for not doing enough. What is the way
forward?
A Firstly, it
is bad analysis. One per cent is a huge number for any Act's usage. No other
Act in India is used so proactively. NREGA or those for ration are there, but
they are for just that. So, that evaluation is not correct but there is room
for improvement. In rural areas the usage is less but so is literacy and
people's power fight out. One RTI application transforms the village. Each RTI
application is thus a mini revolution. It is a transformatory right. People
right now are getting frustrated because action is not taking place on the
information they produce. Courts have not been progressive. There needs to be
pressure on court that they be progressive. There can be no bargaining with
courts on transparency. The Act is being penetrated to the next generation by
getting it into the curriculum and school children using it. We are also having
programmes.
Q Has
impact of RTI changed in terms of it being grievance redressal mechanism to
something beyond that for common citizens?
A It is a
very important question. The tragedy is that we do not have grievance
redressal. Citizens use RTI for it because they do not have any other thing for
grievance redressal. Maharashtra has passed a law for service delivery but
still there is nothing for grievance redressal. A grievance redressal mechanism
will make supervisors responsible. It should be synergetic with the RTI.
Citizen can ask information under RTI and seek action under grievance redresaal.
It will be ordinary citizens Lokpal. For grand corruption you need Lokpal Law.
These laws are passed with Whistle Blower Protection for safety of people but
they are not implemented. It is a crime. They should be answering to people for
that. People grievance not being met is the worst thing. Officers get salaries
for. RTI is not magic wand and needs support through other laws and their
implementation.
Q The
government is giving an impression that delay in online disbursal of
information is because it is uploading and evolving the system which is taking
time. What is your impression of this explanation?
A Let me give
you an example of MNREGA. On this one programme, government is spending
Rs40,000 crores. However, all of it is online right to the remote village level
be it in Manipur, Badmer. Everything is online and almost on all real-time
basis. There is no reason all of India or government of Maharasthra cannot be
online where they have all the computers and everything else for going online.
Earlier, when Freedom of Information Act was there, they would say England took
eight years and we will take longer. It never got implemented. Then came RTI
and we said it will get implemented in 120 days. It has been implemented and
government has not collapsed due to it. It is just an excuse. Blackmailing and
harassment will stop if government does suo motu disclosure but they are
extremely disappointing. In Rajasthan we have painted walls that give details
of benefits people get under MNREGA.
Q How has
been the RTI story after the new establishment?
A Extremely
disappointing! There can be no excuse at their end because one thing they were
voted for was to get rid of corruption. They were fully in support of RTI Act
and they promised grievance redressal once they come in. Today, we are facing
crisis. The earlier government tried to amend a law it passed and BJP has been
extremely regressive. They did not appoint chief commissioner for a long time
and new commissioner has very short tenure. Ten years of RTI is a significant
milestone. Instead of going forward, they are actually dragging their feet and
hiding more. They made a big issue of Congress in corruption and we do not know
what is going on right now because they are not transparent. How do we know
they are not corrupt? Even talking to bureaucrats has become difficult.
Q Last
time the RTI convention did not take place. This year, there is likelihood of
it happening. What do you look forward in it?
A I believe
that PM is also coming. Even if he is not, then 10 years is very big for RTI.
There is a time for a quantum leap. We manage to get a foot in the door and not
it is time that it is totally open to us. There is a great opportunity to come
forward, allow people to participate in making law and make this a movement.
This is an opportunity to involve citizens.
Q In
Rajasthan, school children are now doing social audit. Can you tell us
something about it?
A Around
75,000 applications are put by students and parents in every district and
block. That information is being used to enforce RTE. In Rajasthan there is
also Right to Hearing which is like grievance redressal where they can take up
these issues for follow ups. It is great way of initiating movement for better
society, better health education and better social parameters.
Q What is
the best way in which citizens can take this Act forward?
A I think we
need renewed energy. There is flagging off and frustration growing among people
but if we look back at what we have won and achieved in 10 years, it will
create a renewed movement. Politicians and bureaucrats are working to undermine
this. By connecting various other laws to RTI and synchronising all of them, we
can have better results through social audits.
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