Tehelkahindi.com; Friday, August 05, 2011.
Aruna, both Prashant and Arvind have been your co-travellers in many fights for social justice. But your critique of the Jan Lokpal Bill now is being construed as delaying the anti-corruption act, playing into the government’s hand, and a rift in civil society. Can you explain your dilemma in speaking out?
There is just one line from a song that plays in my head these days — “akla cholo re (walk alone if you must)”. It has been a very difficult decision for the MKSS to make our position public on the Jan Lokpal Bill but we finally decided to speak out because this is a huge and complex issue with many ramifications and as public people it is our responsibility to say what we think and make our ethical positions clear and let people take their own decisions after that. We are not going to force anybody to pledge support for our law or our group as a touchstone of their commitment to fight corruption. We hope people will hear our views and think for themselves.
There is just one line from a song that plays in my head these days — “akla cholo re (walk alone if you must)”. It has been a very difficult decision for the MKSS to make our position public on the Jan Lokpal Bill but we finally decided to speak out because this is a huge and complex issue with many ramifications and as public people it is our responsibility to say what we think and make our ethical positions clear and let people take their own decisions after that. We are not going to force anybody to pledge support for our law or our group as a touchstone of their commitment to fight corruption. We hope people will hear our views and think for themselves.
Nothing can be totally right or totally wrong and one does not know what further nuancing might arise out of an open debate but I think it’s democratically and politically immature to demand that one take a simplistic and black-and-white position on this. This is what governments have always been doing with us. You are seen as either with them or against them. For instance, if you fought for land rights you were described as a Maoist and a votary of violent revolution. We cannot do the same thing ourselves, but we are. We are not allowing ourselves the luxury of the rich debates and nuanced thinking that has been our strength. Pluralism has been the strength of so-called civil society. We cannot sacrifice that. I don’t care what happens to the government but it’s wrong for the people of this country, it’s wrong for democracy and that’s why we have decided to speak from the NCPRI. I trust that the friendships and shared ideals of our co-travellers will survive the disagreement. To doubt our intention and ethics over disagreements cannot be described as Machiavellian. That is a real loss because it precludes open dissent in a climate of trust.
You have come out with a ‘basket of measures’ that addresses all the concerns of the Jan Lokpal Bill but decentralises and breaks up its functioning. We’ll come to that later. Can you first explain your essential disagreements with the ‘Team Anna’ campaign and why you did not join it?
I don’t want to dwell too much about the campaign but even before they went on the Jantar Mantar fast on 5 April, Arvind knew our reasons for not joining it even though we had all been part of the initial discussions about the creation of a strong Lokpal Bill back in 2010. In fact, the drafting of the Lokpal Bill was a spin-off from an NCPRI meeting in which Arvind was asked to convene a small group to draft a separate and strong Whistleblowers Act. He did not finish that but segued it into the Jan Lokpal Bill that then went into forming the India Against Corruption (IAC) forum. When he asked if we would join it, some members of the NCPRI working committee like Prashant agreed but MKSS said no because the forum included saffron groups and we felt that in a movement demanding accountability, the means — the process — is as important as the end. The other concern was that when you demand accountability of others, your own ethics must undergo extremely rigorous standards yourself and that has been a continuing struggle within our movement. Some who shared that dais do not share that rigour. This is why we had said we were happy to be part of the lawmaking process but not the campaign.
I don’t want to dwell too much about the campaign but even before they went on the Jantar Mantar fast on 5 April, Arvind knew our reasons for not joining it even though we had all been part of the initial discussions about the creation of a strong Lokpal Bill back in 2010. In fact, the drafting of the Lokpal Bill was a spin-off from an NCPRI meeting in which Arvind was asked to convene a small group to draft a separate and strong Whistleblowers Act. He did not finish that but segued it into the Jan Lokpal Bill that then went into forming the India Against Corruption (IAC) forum. When he asked if we would join it, some members of the NCPRI working committee like Prashant agreed but MKSS said no because the forum included saffron groups and we felt that in a movement demanding accountability, the means — the process — is as important as the end. The other concern was that when you demand accountability of others, your own ethics must undergo extremely rigorous standards yourself and that has been a continuing struggle within our movement. Some who shared that dais do not share that rigour. This is why we had said we were happy to be part of the lawmaking process but not the campaign.
There are those who would say, don’t look at the messenger, look at the message, which in this case was an anti-corruption drive and the saffron networks proved to be huge amplifiers.
Yes, but financial corruption is only one aspect of corruption. Communalism, majoritarianism, the unequal application of power and justice as happened in Narendra Modi’s Gujarat and in many other communal situations in our country are also important facets of corruptions. In fact, these corruptions can take away lives that have incalculable value.
Yes, but financial corruption is only one aspect of corruption. Communalism, majoritarianism, the unequal application of power and justice as happened in Narendra Modi’s Gujarat and in many other communal situations in our country are also important facets of corruptions. In fact, these corruptions can take away lives that have incalculable value.
And no matter how popular it was, we can’t forget that actually the famous JP Movement gave birth to a resurgent RSS. From a position of oblivion they came back as a force to reckon with in society and even changed the national discourse finally. As political animals, one has to think not just about immediate returns but the longterm issues and consequences of your actions. You cannot walk a journey like this with a set of people and then disown or be blind to their core politics.
Before we move on to the actual Bill, what do you think of the referendum in Chandni Chowk as a pressure tactic and the 16 August fast ahead?
The referendum is a good tool to gauge the broad strokes of whether people want a law or not. It’s like an opinion poll and anyone has a right to do an opinion poll on anything. It’s a free country. But to make a referendum like this the basis for the formulation of a law, or to use it to insist on a certain version is an approach we find difficult to back. One can even use it to ask whether people want the prime minister within its purview or not, but the modalities of how the PM should be brought in is a different discussion altogether. Having said that, even asking whether people want the government’s Lokpal Bill or the Jan Lokpal Bill is a bit misleading.
The referendum is a good tool to gauge the broad strokes of whether people want a law or not. It’s like an opinion poll and anyone has a right to do an opinion poll on anything. It’s a free country. But to make a referendum like this the basis for the formulation of a law, or to use it to insist on a certain version is an approach we find difficult to back. One can even use it to ask whether people want the prime minister within its purview or not, but the modalities of how the PM should be brought in is a different discussion altogether. Having said that, even asking whether people want the government’s Lokpal Bill or the Jan Lokpal Bill is a bit misleading.
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Let me give you a very small example from a meeting in Tilonia in Rajasthan. Every 15 August and 26 January the gram panchayat there has meetings and invites me to speak. Once there was this big talk in the air that “Constitution koh badalna hain”. I asked the 3,000-strong crowd, how many of you have seen the Constitution? About six hands went up. Then I asked, how many of you have touched it, about four went up. Then I asked, how many of you have read it and two went up. So then I said, if a political party is telling you the Constitution of India is anti the people of India and we must amend it, and all of you are saying, yes, yes, it’s bad, change it, are you acting out of reason or ignorance?
The point is, if you reduce big complex issues to their simplest formulations, it will of course invoke a strong response and this is always a tightrope walk. Slogans and simplistic formulations are important at one level to galvanise public involvement and get more visibility but that is just a small percent of the aim. If you reduce the public discussion on the Jan Lokpal Bill to its most common minimum and then ask everyone else to take a position based on that, it becomes a travesty. How many people have really read either drafts or thought deeply about any alternative approaches to the same goal? If you ask people whether they want a strong curb on corruption or want to hold the powerful to book, the answer will naturally and rightly be yes, but the deeper questions and issues involved in lawmaking are much more difficult to solve.
As far as fasting goes, again, this is a democracy and every citizen should be allowed to protest peacefully in whatever way they want. The government has no right to stop Anna Hazare’s fast. Having said that though, over the years the MKSS has revised its position on fasts as a strategy of protest. Irom Sharmila has been on a fast for 10 years, Medha (Patkar) has been on so many fasts, sometimes to little avail because there’s been no media attention and no response from government. Why should one protest in a way that de-energies and harms oneself? Perhaps the Hazare team does not have that worry because there is enough media attention tied into their campaign. But I don’t think it’s right to dictate that Parliament should pass a Bill by a certain date. It sets a bad precedent. If another set of people comes tomorrow and says, you must amend the Constitution as we demand, what do you do? So I’d say abiding by due process but sustaining continual moral pressure on the government to see the Bill is passed by the winter session after enough deliberation and discussion would seem a more reasonable option. (Story cont... on web edi.)
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